Because of these several impediments, as well as other technical difficulties, you will find typos and occasional replication of text. In our humble opinion, typos show that the logs are of *live* chats, not canned interviews, and minimal editing of these logs has taken place.

[Kent_Brewster] Greetings, Earthlings.
[Kent_Brewster] Hi, Victoria! You missed a good one.
[Kent_Brewster] Hi, Ann!
[AnnCrispin] Hello.
[victoriastrauss] Yes, sorry I couldn't be there.
[AnnCrispin] Am I really here?
[victoriastrauss] Hi, Ann
[Ryan] Yes, you are.
[Riesengrosser] HI
[AnnCrispin] Am I here at the right time?
[Cybling] Okay folks...we're about to begin the online version of a...
[Cybling] Literary Scams panel that ran here at the con earlier today.
[Cybling] Charlie...could I hand the typing over to you now to let everyone know...
[Cybling] what the panel is about?
[Riesengrosser] How is Chicon doing?
[Charlie_Petit] This panel was run this afternoon to help inform authors about
[AnnCrispin] How many came, Charlie?
[Charlie_Petit] how literary scams are run, how to avoid them,
[Kent_Brewster] Chicon is geographically bewildering. No matter where you go, you need to go up, over, down, and through to get wherever you want to be.
[Charlie_Petit] and how to do things right. It was attended by around 40 people.
[AnnCrispin] Great!
[Kent_Brewster] Lots of note-taking.
[Riesengrosser] Yes word has spred that things are layed out a bit confuseing!
[victoriastrauss] Glad there was so much interest in the panel.
[Kent_Brewster] It was in a tiny room, unfortunately.
[Serenah_SS_Suchomimus] ehm
[Serenah_SS_Suchomimus] so, eh, what's this now?
[Charlie_Petit] "SRO"
[Cybling] What's the most common literary scam?
[Kent_Brewster] If anybody asks you for money to read, edit, or publish your book, you are being scammed.
[Charlie_Petit] "Most common" is probably fraudulent agenting operations. "Most expensive" . . .
[AnnCrispin] Can you please indicate which of the experts you'd like to respond? Would help.
[Charlie_Petit] they're kind of close-mouthed about their profits.
[Ryan] ah ill fix that
[AnnCrispin] Well, Don Phelman made 14.4 million...that's Candian, but it's still something.
[G]
[Kent_Brewster] Wow.
[AnnCrispin] Phelan, that is.
[Charlie_Petit] And he's back in business.
[victoriastrauss] Yes, as a ghost writer.
[AnnCrispin] Yes, Charlie. Victoria, Charlie, we need to gather any information we have about that, Clay wants to know. He says there is now
[AnnCrispin] an inter-country task force set up, and he's going to find out how to contact them.
[Charlie_Petit] I'll call you either Monday evening or Tuesday morning, Ann.
[AnnCrispin] Clay's supposed to call me next Friday or so.
[Charlie_Petit] I'm pleased to hear that he's interested.
[AnnCrispin] Yep, very interested.
[AnnCrispin] Has the panel officially started yet?
[AnnCrispin] Or do we still have a few minutes?
[Kent_Brewster] Howard Hendrix dropped into the panel and brought up print-on-demand publication, which is turning out to be a lovely new scam.
[victoriastrauss] I don't regard POD as a scam so much as a scheme...
[Charlie_Petit] Ashley had an excellent explanation of the process.
[victoriastrauss] though writers really have to watch out for abusive contracts.
[AnnCrispin] Much of it, Kent. But at least it's cheaper than a lot of the regular publishing scams.
[Charlie_Petit] Basically, if there's no judgment applied to the product, it's probably a scam.
[victoriastrauss] No judgment?
[Charlie_Petit] No application of professional judgment.
[AnnCrispin] He means no editorial selection process.
[victoriastrauss] Oh.
[Kent_Brewster] If your agent is telling you "hey, everthing's going great!" instead of going through the difficulties that your book is having, it's probably a scam.
[victoriastrauss] I think we should be careful about how we use the word "scam"...
[victoriastrauss] There are many questionable agents, for instance, who aren't actual scammers...
[Kent_Brewster] What's the difference between a scam and a scheme?
[AnnCrispin] I agree, Victoria. There is a difference between questionable practices and illegal activities.
[victoriastrauss] A scam is something designed for no other purpose but to rip you off...
[victoriastrauss] While a scheme is a possibly legal, but probably deceptive,attempt to make money off people's ignorance.
[Kent_Brewster] Ah.
[victoriastrauss] With most schemes, you do get what you pay for...
[victoriastrauss] Even if it isn't worth the money.
[Cybling] lol
[victoriastrauss] With a scam you get nada.
[Charlie_Petit] Either way, it's fraud.
[Kent_Brewster] Okay, so a vanity press is a scheme, because you get a basement full of books?
[AnnCrispin] I'd say that's a big yes, Kent. The scheme comes in
[victoriastrauss] If you get them. Many vanity presses only print 400 or so copies, and pretend to be warehousing the other 2,000 you thought you paid for.
[Alpiyano] HELLO!!!!!!!!!
[Charlie_Petit] If what was advertised was done so with deceptive implications of a specific result, it's a violation.
[Alpiyano] :)
[AnnCrispin] where they try to convince the prospective author that being published by them is
[AnnCrispin] real publication.
[Alpiyano] how are you,friends?
[Alpiyano] and Ryan?
[AnnCrispin] Hello.
[Alpiyano] hiiiii
[Kent_Brewster] Got it, I think. Makes me wonder about print-on-demand again ... you don't actually wind up with a basement full of books ... so would that be a scam or a scheme?
[AnnCrispin] Scheme, I'd say.
[victoriastrauss] A scheme, I'd say.
[victoriastrauss] LOL!
[AnnCrispin] Victoria, you owe me a beer.
[AnnCrispin] LOL.
[Ryan] Is there a secure source to find a trusted agent?
[Kent_Brewster] Look at the AAR.
[Kent_Brewster] www.aar-online.org
[Charlie_Petit] And don't look at advertisements.
[AnnCrispin] Ryan, I'd say the AAR members are your best bet.
[Kai] brb
[victoriastrauss] Also, you can write to SFWA with the names of agents you have questions about, and we'll check our files.
[AnnCrispin] right.
[Charlie_Petit] If an agent is advertising for new writers, the risk of getting scammed is just too high.
[AnnCrispin] Beware@sfwa.org
* Ryan nods.
[Kent_Brewster] Don't send anything to an agent that is actively soliciting new writers via his Web site. He will be inundated with crap.
[victoriastrauss] Or if an agent solicits you.
[victoriastrauss] Another problem...you can't necessarily believe an agent when s/he says s/he doesn't charge fees.
[Charlie_Petit] And, last but not least . . . don't register your unpublished manuscript with the copyright office; at least one scammer is getting names from that.
[victoriastrauss] More than one, Charlie.
[AnnCrispin] Yes, they play semantic games. I've heard of "marketing fees"
[Kent_Brewster] Edit Ink was using the copyright database, as I recall.
[victoriastrauss] And some publishers too.
[AnnCrispin] "contract fees," "office fees,"
[Charlie_Petit] "publicity fees"
[victoriastrauss] "Retainer" seems to be growing in popularity...
[victoriastrauss] I know of 2 agents who charge $1,500 for 6 months.
[AnnCrispin] "submission charge"
[AnnCrispin] "submission fee"
[Charlie_Petit] Like the SFWA site says . . . if it's charged BEFORE the sale of the book, it's a "fee", no matter how it's labelled.
[Kent_Brewster] There is/was at least one direct mail company that sold the copyright database in mailing label form, and showed the names of their customers. Book doctors, poetry "contests," and Who's Who were prominent.
[AnnCrispin] you name it. They key thing to remember is that the writer must write a check
[AnnCrispin] before a sale is made.
[AnnCrispin] How many aspiring authors do we have in here?
[victoriastrauss] Questionable agents will often answer questions about their up-front money by saying it's industry standard,but it's not.
[Charlie_Petit] Explanation: An agent who has already been paid has no economic incentive to actually submit the manuscript, as he's already been paid.
[Kimmo] I guess I'm aspiring to be aspiring? (when I'm not this sleepy ;)
[Charlie_Petit] An agent working on commission has an incentive to work hard to place the book, as that's how he'll get paid.
[Helcat] Ann, Kent, Victoria, you might have seen me around sff net. I was kinda hoping Jimbo might be here.
[AnnCrispin] Hello, Hel. :-)
[Kent_Brewster] Hiya, Helcat.
[victoriastrauss] Hi, Helcat.
[Charlie_Petit] Hello, Helen.
[AnnCrispin] Kent, heard anything more from good old Victor West lately?
[victoriastrauss] Another thing you should never believe from an agent: "You must get your ms. professionally edited, because publishers won't look at mss. that haven't been."
[victoriastrauss] Speaking of book doctors.
[Helcat] I'm missing Chicago. *sniffle* but I should mention how much I appreciate the work that you guys do. It's often quoted in nongenre writing resources and I refer anyone who asks me to your site and the sff newsgroup.
[victoriastrauss] Hey, cool. Thanks.
[AnnCrispin] Yes, editors are looking for manuscripts that are professionally WRITTEN, not professionally EDITED.
[Charlie_Petit] Yes. Gordon Van Gelder mentioned today that "professionally edited" books are just slightly better unpublishable manuscripts than the usual slush.
[Kent_Brewster] There you go, Ann.
[Helcat] I'm the one who quipped that the only place on a check that any writer should be signing is the back. :)
[AnnCrispin] bravo for you, Helen. We've all stolen that.
[Kent_Brewster] I'm going to have to go now ... got a writers' workshop section.
[victoriastrauss] Bye, Kent.
[AnnCrispin] Don't make 'em cry, Kent.
[AnnCrispin] LOL.
[Helcat] I told Jim to let you guys play with it. :)
* Kimmo grins
[Kent_Brewster] And they're blowing up balloons in here, of which I have a pathological fear. Lovely. :)
[Helcat] I'll remember that for Philly, Kent.
[Kent_Brewster] 'all come see us at www.speculations.com, y'hear?
[Kent_Brewster] Bye!
[Helcat] bye!
[AnnCrispin] Bye, Kent.
[victoriastrauss] What else should a writer never believe from an agent?
[victoriastrauss] I've got one: any agent is better than no agent.
[AnnCrispin] It's now 6:30 in chicago. Is the panel just now starting officially? The time difference has me
[AnnCrispin] confoozled.
[victoriastrauss] *you
[victoriastrauss] whoops
[Helcat] the schedule said six, i think.
[Charlie_Petit] There was a minor schedule change BACK to 6 that I found out about this afternoon . . .
[Charlie_Petit] so some people might still think 6:30. Like us.
[AnnCrispin] Oh! Well, I'm glad I came early! LOL.
[Helcat] i was going off rsfa.
[Charlie_Petit] Welcome, Sheryl.
[victoriastrauss] So what else was discussed at the panel this afternoon?
[AnnCrispin] Hello, Sheryl.
[Helen] lest i scare people.
[Sheryl] Thanks! Hi everyone!
[Charlie_Petit] Don Maass (President of AAR) gave an interesting presentation on the AAR's purpose in life.
[Kimmo] ... AAR?
[Ryan] o_O
[Ryan] Too bad he isn't here chatting with us ;P
[AnnCrispin] Association of Authors Representatives
[victoriastrauss] Association of Authors Representatives
[Kimmo] Thanks
[victoriastrauss] Whoa. That's 2 beers.
[AnnCrispin] ROFL!
[Kimmo] a; I'm in Finland and b; it's now 2.30 am ;)
[Charlie_Petit] Brenda gave an . . . uninhibited, I think is the best description . . . commentary on scams from the SFWA writer perspective, and gave away copies of the Bulletin.
[Kimmo] (and yes I said I was going to sleep, but I can do that later...)
[AnnCrispin] Brenda is a card. She's very droll.
[victoriastrauss] I can imagine that, Charlie!
[Helen] Wow. Finland. I just had an interview with a norwegian ebm music person. scandanavia is turning up everywhere. :)
[Charlie_Petit] Yes. She compared a writer who expects someone else to learn part of the craft to Tiger Woods expecting someone else to putt for her.
[Charlie_Petit] Him.
[Charlie_Petit] Whatever.
[Charlie_Petit] A few lightbulbs went on at that one . . .
[victoriastrauss] Yes. You really do have to make the effort to educate yourself...
[victoriastrauss] It's so much easier now that it used to be, with Publishers Weekly available online, and other resources.
[AnnCrispin] Writing is really a field where knowledge is power, and ignorance is most
[AnnCrispin] definitely NOT bliss.
[victoriastrauss] Well said, Ann.
[AnnCrispin] Hello, Phillip.
[Phillip1] Hello Steve,
[Charlie_Petit] Hello Phillip
[AnnCrispin] Avoid scam agents! Read Writer Beware!
[victoriastrauss] One thing--the Internet is a great resource for writers, but there's an enormous amount of bad information available. The Internet is *not* a good place to research agents.
[Helen] would they let you put that URL in the topic, ann, with the title of the panel?
[victoriastrauss] http://www.sfwa.org/beware/
[victoriastrauss] Or e-mail beware@swfa.org.
[Kimmo] So what _is_ a good place to research agents?
[victoriastrauss] Print sources are best, but that's not practical for non US residents, I know.
[Charlie_Petit] There is one good place to start: the AAR's website at www.aar-online.org
[victoriastrauss] I agree with Charlie.
[Charlie_Petit] One can then go to www.speculations.com/rumormill and Writer Beware (URL in heading), but that's only as a crosscheck, as those sites will only help eliminate bad apples.
[victoriastrauss] Also, you can read Publishers Weekly online--it's http://www.publishersweekly.com, and there's a good deal of information about agents there.
[victoriastrauss] And Bill Martin's Agent Research & Evaluation is a good resource: http://www.agentresearch.com/. They have a great newsletter.
[Charlie_Petit] The most effective means to find an agent who might be interested in your work is to HONESTLY compare your work to writers you admire, write to the publishers of comparable ones asking for the agent's name, and starting there.
[Charlie_Petit] That, however, is very difficult to do.
[Charlie_Petit] Getting published without losing your shirt is not easy on any path.
[victoriastrauss] One mistake writers make is to sell themselves short--they think that because they're unkown only a second-rate agent will deal with them. But that's really not true.
[Helen] Do agents have slushpiles, tho?
[Charlie_Petit] The top agents will be quite happy to nurture talent that THEY believe in, but they will not sugarcoat the present.
[Charlie_Petit] Helen, agents do have slushpiles. Huge ones.
[AnnCrispin] Helen, they do.
[Charlie_Petit] Ashley Grayson mentioned that over the last 18 months, he'd had 1000 manuscripts in.
[Charlie_Petit] (His agency is three agents.)
[victoriastrauss] Wow!
[Helen] Right, so is that a factor in why people get discouraged from submitting?
[Helen] (I pity the Warner aspect folks. :) )
[AnnCrispin] Most legit agents I know receive between 25 and 100 manuscripts per week.
[AnnCrispin] Or partials.
[AnnCrispin] Or queries.
[Charlie_Petit] Frankly, a lot of people get discouraged from submitting because they submit too soon. It's sort of like getting discouraged after the first piano recital if you've only taken lessons for six weeks.
[Helen] okay, here's an honest question. does an unknown author have to have a completed manuscript?
[Kimmo] That's a question I've been thinking; should you send complete manuscripts or partial ones?
[victoriastrauss] This is why good agents don't need to advertise.
[Kimmo] heh
[victoriastrauss] Absolutely the ms. must be complete.
[AnnCrispin] Helen, I would say yes.
[Charlie_Petit] Yes. An unknown needs a completed ms.
[Charlie_Petit] However, that doesn't mean that the completed ms is what gets sent.
[Helen] good to know I'm waiting with good reason. :)
[AnnCrispin] The best you can hope for from a publisher on a partial submission from an unknown is:
[AnnCrispin] "Hurry and finish this! I can't wait to read the rest."
[Charlie_Petit] Many agents have guidelines, as do publishers. Query letters only, query and synopsis, partial, etc.
[Helen] But having the completed one ready, then sending that out in query while you start the next one is the best method of this madness.
[victoriastrauss] Helen, yes.
[Charlie_Petit] Absolutely. And don't stop at just the next one. Keep writing no matter where you are in the marketing process.
[victoriastrauss] I hear from many writers who've stopped writing while they wait for their book to sell...it's a recipe for frustration, because if that book doesn't sell, then you have nothing.
[Helen] Well, this year is going to be an interesting one for me, cause I'm starting with stories. and lots of people keep asking me why I don't publish on the web..
[AnnCrispin] Aha...the web. The internet. The world's biggest slushpile.
[victoriastrauss] POD, you mean, Helen?
[AnnCrispin] No offense.
[Charlie_Petit] For non-scam reasons, publishing on the web without trying the pro markets first is just like selling one short in shooting for top agents.
[Helen] I agree, Ann.
[AnnCrispin] Not to mention that it limits the rights you then have to sell to print publishers.
[Kimmo] The web might develop into a market tho. Or atleast, some serious "publishing portal" might.
[Kimmo] (my opinion only of course)
[Charlie_Petit] I doubt it, Kimmo. Too many legal obstacles.
[AnnCrispin] When they get serious about it, they'll pay real money.
[Kimmo] Legal obstacles?
[AnnCrispin] Till then...
[shakes head]
[Charlie_Petit] But that's my panel tomorrow morning on Internet Copyright.
[Kimmo] heh
[Helen] Kimmp] I don't think so. The web isn't as profitable as it looks, and if they can't pay themselves, they can''t pay reasonable amounts for fiction.
[AnnCrispin] Ah yes. The brave pirates of the internet.
[Helen] what time, Charlie?
[Charlie_Petit] 10 (here, of course; no followup chat)
[AnnCrispin] Busy with their scanners.
[Helen]
[--- has been a victim of wacko dot-com shuffles
[TheThe] Wuldn't you agree that for short stories, there are legit markets on the web, such as galaxyonline.com, and scifi.com's scifiction
[TheThe] ?
[Kimmo] Well, I think e-books might work. Not yet perhaps but eventually... but I may be an optimist ;)
[AnnCrispin] yes, and there is gothic.net, too
[Charlie_Petit] To an extent, yes. As I said, though, there are legal complications that nobody is looking at.
[Charlie_Petit] It's rather scary when one starts digging into European law.
[Kimmo] I hear Baen is considering e-only books (as opposed to their webscription experiment)
[TheThe] I'm asking 'cause I submitted my first story (first submission, that is) to galaxyonline
[AnnCrispin] Good luck, The.
[TheThe] Thanks, Ann
[Charlie_Petit] Best of luck in any event, The.
[Cybling] .
[Helen] speaking of event, what a shame that event-horizon didn't work out.
[TheThe] Helen] I actually think Scifiction is working out better than Ehorizon.
[Charlie_Petit] I'll believe either one is "working out" when I can see the books after two years.
[Helen] yeah.
[victoriastrauss] Re: Baen going all e-book: A publisher would be cutting itself off at the knees to do that, because the consumer market for e-books is way behind the technology at this point; until it catches up, the e-market is too limited to sell very much.
[Charlie_Petit] Until then, I'll remain skeptical.
[Charlie_Petit] By "the books" I mean the accounting books.
[victoriastrauss] Or the cook(ed) books, as the case may be
[TheThe] Charlie] I don't think Scifiction is supposed to bring scifi.com money, just prestige.
[Cybling] Agreed. That's the biggest impediment to the web publishing business today. $$
[Helen] not all ebook, I hope. I'd rather be skewered by spoons wielded by rabid meerkats than read a Weber book off a monitor.
[Cybling] LOL
[victoriastrauss] Helen, I agree; I hate reading off my computer.
[Kimmo] victoriastrauss: never said _all e-book_... just that they would do books that were all e-books. Anyway, I may be wrong :)
[Charlie_Petit] The, in that case it will be cancelled the next time there's a management change.
[Helen] exclusively e-book, would be a better way of putting it.
[victoriastrauss] Well, I'm glad I'm not with Baen!
[victoriastrauss] I hate the thought of a book of mine never becoming a tangible object.
[Helen] Victoria: where does one draw the line, say, with ex-libris and such that are advertised in respected newsletters and what not...
[Charlie_Petit] Particularly since the cover of one of Victoria's books is up for an award tomorrow night.
[Kimmo] I'd kill to be with Baen, in e-format or not ;)
[Helen] not that I would go through one of these things, but with the e-mediums, it's hard to tell what's legit and not.
[Charlie_Petit] Helen, I'm extremely skeptical of the "POD originals" industry.
[Charlie_Petit] I don't see how the numbers work to the author's benefit.
[Helen] reprints are a different story, no pun intended?
[victoriastrauss] Helen, I think XLibris is a perfectly legitimate business, it's just that peole have to realize that they are not a publisher, but a seller of printing services to writers. As such, they do not market their books.
[Charlie_Petit] (Other than not paying Vantage $7,000 for 2,000 substandard copies.)
* Cybling raises hand
[Cybling] But are the legitimate publishers really promoting the SF midlist anymore? to anyone.
[Charlie_Petit] Answer: Did they ever?
[Helen] is that the publishers or the bookstores?
[victoriastrauss] At least they are getting them into bricks-and-mortar stores, which you can't say for the POD's.
[Helen]
[--former bookstore manager
[Cybling] Publishers. They used to arrange book signings at least.
[victoriastrauss] Booksellers aren't interested in ordering POD books because they aren't returnable.
* Cybling sits back down.
[AnnCrispin] Yes, we're hearing lots of distressed stories from xlibris and iUniverse authors who
[AnnCrispin] can't get books to reviewers.
[Charlie_Petit] Cybling, I'm not seeing much activity of any kinds in support of anything less than blockbusters. The "midlist" is a much larger proportion than it used to be.
[AnnCrispin] They are running way behind, it seems.
[victoriastrauss] Yes, many complaints about backlogs with POD printing and ordering.
[Helen] It's the quality midlist that breaks my heart so.
[Charlie_Petit] Ann, in order to meet existing orders, XLibris must run their machinery at 125% of its duty cycle, which means more breakdowns, more repair bills, etc.
[Helen] Esp. when I'd hide them during strip season. It was like the underground railroad for half of SFWA during returns season in my store.
[Helen] Then I'd singlehandedly rescue the midlist, by buying them all.
[Kimmo] heh
[Helen] I'll be done reading them next Christmas.
[AnnCrispin] Gee, helen, did you save some of mine?
[TheThe] Actually, the midlist should be the eventuall beneficiary of POD, when it works out - at least the books will be available in some format.
[Helen] thinkthink... you have the star trek novels, eh?
[AnnCrispin] Ideally, that would be so, The.
[AnnCrispin] Some, yes.
[Helen] your first novel in 1980 something.
[AnnCrispin] 983
[AnnCrispin] 1983
[TheThe] brb
[Helen] I rescued one and gave it to a young trekkie friend of mine who would have been too young to have read it.
[Charlie_Petit] I'll be leaving for another "virtual panel" now. Thank you all for coming. Ann and Victoria, this panel will remain open for a few more minutes to allow questions to finish up.,
[Helen] That one made an impression on me because of its opening remarks on being a new writer.
[victoriastrauss] Bye, Charlie.
[Helen] Bye Charlie!
[AnnCrispin] bye, charlie, victoria
[victoriastrauss] Any final questions?
[Helen] No, just keep up the good work... and anyone who is interested in keeping up with the scamses I highly recommend the newsgroup at sff net.
[Ryan] Orrrrrr
[Ryan] Perhaps you can meet here again ;]
[Kimmo] Just thanks for the interesting information!
[victoriastrauss] You're welcome!
[AnnCrispin] yes, you are very welcome
[victoriastrauss] Would love to meet here again.
[Cybling] Folks...we're going to move Charlie over to #chicon2 for his chat with Mark Gellis there.
[Cybling] folks, it looks like this panel is fiinished...so please do join us in #chicon2