Cybling

Doranna Durgin Brian Hopkins
Billie Sue MosimanL.E. Modesitt, Jr.
Keith Ferrell
 February 28, 1998 -- 4 PM EST
from the author's point of view
The Brave New World of Publishing

JanCyberC Okay! Welcome everyone to the Author's Panel Discussion on the Brave New World of Publishing. Since this is a moderated chat, if you wish to send a question to the panelists...please private message me.. or post on the board if you're in the BALCONY. Why don't we start off today by having our authors introduce themselves. BAH aka Brian Hopkins... would you like to start?
BrianHopkins Greetings, everyone! ACTION bows. ACTION stumbles. Next.
JanCyberC LOL....BAH can you tell us a little about yourself...what you've got out there.
BrianHopkins Sure, Jan. I am basically a short story writer, with about 50 some odd story sales to me credit. I have a short novel out now, COLD AT HEART, which just made the Stoker ballot.
JanCyberC Thanks BAH.
BrianHopkins You're welcome.
JanCyberC Billie, could you introduce yourself to us?
BillieMosiman I'm a suspense novelist, anthology editor of sf/mystery anthos, and short story writer. WIREMAN is out and I have a new story in ROBERT BLOCH'S PSYCHOS. GA
JanCyberC Thank Billie. Doranna, could you please introduce yourself now?
Doranna Durgin I'm a fantasy writer, mostly, atleast until some of my SF stuff sells. my fourth book is coming out sometime this month, so I'm in excited author mode. Also, I have dog wars going on in my office, so I now officially blame all typos and oopses on them
JanCyberC LOLOL. Thanks Doranna. Lee, can you introduce yourself to us?
BrianHopkins Congrats on the book, Doranna.
LModesitt I'm an SF and Fantasy writer -- about 50/50 -- though best known probably for the Recluce books... over a million of those in print. Have sold some short SF stories, and I've been published for over 25 years.
JanCyberC Thanks folks!
JanCyberC Okeydoke. Let's get rolling here. To ask a question double click (private chat) JanCyberC's name and send your question. Your question will be added to the QUEUE and will be asked for you in turn. Panelists, what's your take on what's happening in the Publishing world these days...re getting published.
Doranna Durgin Free for all here?
JanCyberC Have things become particularly difficult, or have they always been this stormy. Yes indeed Doranna Free For all among the panelists.
BillieMosiman They've never been quite this stormy. Publishing has changed, but thank god it's still alive.
Doranna Durgin Not this stormy, I don't think. Things go in cycles, but from what I gather this os one of the worst of them.
BillieMosiman Many midlist authors, caught in the storm and drowned, have come back into your book stands under assumed names.
BrianHopkins Short story markets for SF and fantasy haven't changed much. The names have changed and a few mags have come and gone, but it's mostly stable. Horror is another story. There are very few pro markets for short horror.
BillieMosiman And darn few pro markets for horror novels too.
LModesitt I see two disturbing trends. The first is a greater and greater emphasis on shock value in what's published. Shock value and sex... if you will. The second is the growing tendency off the bookstores to treat books as commodities like hammers, interchangeable goods, and getting published the second time is based on what you sold the first time.
Doranna Durgin Exactly. That makes it a bit of a viscious circle sometimes.
Doranna Durgin Vicious?
BillieMosiman Writers are being more creative about publishing these days.
Doranna Durgin Darn. What do you mean?
BrianHopkins Viscosity's a bitch.
BillieMosiman Like taking pseudonyms. Or getting new agents. Or calling in favors. Or finding publishers who are smaller and who will give the author more attention.
Doranna Durgin Ah. Yeah. I've actually got a pseudonym in waiting
LModesitt It's getting harder for new writers to have the time to build an audience.... the accounting types want an immediate return... that's one reason, I suspect, for the growth of shock value. It gets quick results.
BrianHopkins It's reach the point, though, Billie, where a writer has to spend more time in the business aspect, leaving less for writing. Wouldn't you agree?
Doranna Durgin I agree, Lee.
BillieMosiman But authors, to get to -be- authors, are tough nuggets. Publishing will survive this change and so will pro writers.
Doranna Durgin I think a new author needs a certain amount of time to mature, but many of us aren't getting that chance.
LModesitt The good ones will survive...
BrianHopkins This is a Darwinistic thing, then, Billie?
BillieMosiman Sometimes, yes, Brian. Being creative takes time.
Doranna Durgin The determined ones, too!
Doranna Durgin ACTION strikes a determined pose
BrianHopkins ACTION wonders if he should assume a pit bull motif rather than a wolf's.
LModesitt You can't really separate "good" from "determined" -- you have to be determined to be good.
Doranna Durgin True!
BillieMosiman Rather than lament the state of publishing, most writers are just working their butts off to do good stuff--stuff so good it will get attention.
Doranna Durgin That's a nice positive spin on it
JanCyberC Folks, we have some questions from the audience if you're ready?
BrianHopkins Seems there is a lot of stuff that's not very good that gets a lot of attention, too, Billie. RE, Lee's point about shock.
BillieMosiman But it wasn't -bad- stuff that caused this change. It was several different events.
LModesitt One related problem here is that there's a definite split between what readers want and what some editors think people want.
BillieMosiman True, Lee!
Doranna Durgin Can you define that better, Lee?
BillieMosiman (Ready for questions, yes.)
JanCyberC RAf asks: What would better for a beginning - author?...to jump right into a novel? ....or start off in short stories?
Doranna Durgin Whichever one draws you to it..
BrianHopkins That depends on what you have the desire to write. And some of the skills are different.
Doranna Durgin Don't discount the power of the muse in this sort of thing
BillieMosiman I started with short stories. I think maybe that's what I'd do again today, but it depends on the writer's skills. Some sh. story writers can't write good novels, and vice versa.
Doranna Durgin More than just some of them, I think, Bah
LModesitt I started in short stories -- Ben Bova basically told me to write novels, because I was better at it, and he was right.
JanCyberC So you should go where your talent lies then?
BillieMosiman I would, yes.
BrianHopkins Talent and desire, Jan. Doranna said muse, but same thing.
Doranna Durgin Although it's always good to stretch and explore, when you can
LModesitt Yes... but it's sometimes hard to determine initially where that talent lies exactly.
JanCyberC crRAfrCC asks: Is having an agent absolutely necessary these days?
BillieMosiman True. Then maybe desire is what should lead. If the novel calls loudest, write it. Or if stories, write them then.
Doranna Durgin Yes, what Billie said
BrianHopkins Not absolutely necessary. And certainly not necessary for short fiction.
LModesitt It can help... but I've never had an agent for F&SF...
BillieMosiman For selling short stories, no. For selling sf/fantasy novels, not absolutely necessary as the publishers in that genre look at unsolicited works.
Doranna Durgin Not necessary...it depends on who you are.
BillieMosiman But in most other areas, an agent is necessary to even get the book read.
JanCyberC Ah...so in genre work your just as well on your own?
BrianHopkins Depends on the agent you can get, Jan.
Doranna Durgin Some people are savvy negotiators and stand on their own. I couldn't--though I did sell my first book on my own.
BrianHopkins A good agent can make the difference in you career.
Doranna Durgin Billie's right--like in mystery. Very few people will even look at the book. But you're okay on your own in Romance, I think.
BillieMosiman Mystery novelists need agents. Only sf/f publishers look at books without agent submissions. As far as I know.
JanCyberC from crBaryon: Has the shrinking number of publishers, caused greater shrinkage of markets for sales, even though the number of titles has remained the same?
Doranna Durgin See, I read Billie's mind.
BrianHopkins The catch-22, however, is that the best agents are exactly those who are least interested in new writers.
BillieMosiman Yes, romance is one where you don't need an agent too.
LModesitt A very good agent... though... Remember an agent works on commission... and some can get impatient about a long-term career plan...
BillieMosiman Shrinkage of publishers has caused a small problem about things like auctioning books.
Doranna Durgin the long term is the most important
JanCyberC Auctioning books?
BillieMosiman You have fewer places to send the book--either just to sell or to auction. Writers aren't fond of monopolies and although that's not what we have yet, it's getting tight out there.
JanCyberC So there is an impact then.
BillieMosiman Oh yes.
LModesitt Paradoxically, there are more very small publishers and fewer mid-sized publishers, and a handful of big publishers who dominate the industry in market terms.
BillieMosiman The good news in this---small independent publishers are taking up the slack of the big conglomerates.
BrianHopkins Many writers in SF are lamenting the impact of commercial tie-in novels, Star Trek, Star Wars, etc. The greater impact may lie there.
JanCyberC Do this small publishers get the distrubtion they need though?
Doranna Durgin Boy, they sure eat up the titles
LModesitt In a way, I think it may be easier to get a novel "published" and harder to get any real impact these days.
Doranna Durgin (the tie ins, I meant)
BillieMosiman Not as good distribution, perhaps, but one can make a name with a small publisher, in order to get a big NY publisher to take notice.
BrianHopkins Helps if the small press publication gets a lot of attention, maybe even wins an award. Good for press and author.
BillieMosiman Unfortunately, at the moment, big NY publishers still dominate. Oh, I don't mean "unfortunately", really. Just that the choices are so few.
Doranna Durgin Hey, my first book won an award and I'm not even sure my publisher cared
LModesitt One problem with all the tie-in novels is that they dominate the lists and tend to crowd out stand-alone titles... so to speak
BillieMosiman Award wins and nominations are great for the author.
BrianHopkins A small press publisher might have been more excited for you, Doranna?
Doranna Durgin Maybe so...
JanCyberC crRAfrCC asks: How has publishing changed , then...compared to earlier times? What is the main difference?
JanCyberC Have we covered that fully, do you think?
JanCyberC Okay, a quick question for Mr. Modesitt from Kenster: Can you tell us the Canadian release date of your most recent book?
LModesitt The Canadian release date is officially the same as the US release date. In practice, Fenn is about three weeks later. My last book was The Spellsong War -- and the official release date was January, 1998. I don't know the day of the month....though the publisher always gives one. That was the last hardcover date. Adiamante is a March paperback which was shipped about two weeks ago.
BillieMosiman Changes are: conglomerates that ate up individual houses and imprints. More money going to bestsellers. Midlist has been dumped. Some genres have been killed. Agents are necessary for most novel sales.
Doranna Durgin In "eaerlier times" an author had moretime to build an audience, and to mature as a writer. Publishers were more willing to develop their authors.
BrianHopkins Good summary, Billie.
Doranna Durgin Now you've got to arrive on the scene ready-made
JanCyberC And books weren't pulled from the shelves and pulped as quickly or at all?
BrianHopkins That might be one plus to starting out in short stories. Though many skills are different, you can learn some of the trade there.
LModesitt Some publishers still do try to develop authors, but they can only do that for a handful any more
Doranna Durgin Tor is good at that, and DAW
BillieMosiman Correct, Jan. The life of a paperback original in bookstores is appoximately 2-4 weeks. In a grocery rack, one week.
Doranna Durgin I don't find that to be the case. Not from an insider's POV. ACTION worked at a bookstore until recently Maybe in the mall stores?
BillieMosiman (Willing and happy to be corrected. Heh.)
LModesitt That short paperback life is true -- if you're not on permanent backlist. The Magic of Recluce has been continually in print since 1990...
Doranna Durgin I think it depends on the type of store. We just didn't have pull-downs that often
LModesitt You have two classes of books -- the handful on backlist... and those "churned" by the stores.
BrianHopkins Might also depend on the strength of the author's following.
BillieMosiman True. My books are easily found in mystery independent stores and more difficult to find in a mall chain store.
JanCyberC I've heard there's a 6 month limit most places. If it doesn't sell by then, oh well.
Doranna Durgin (I'm talking about a Media Play store)
JanCyberC Okay here's one that was addressed to Lee but is pretty general crLizzie asks: What does he think readers want that the editors don't fathom. What does he thing the editors are trying to foist on the reading public?
BillieMosiman Backlist is turning into mainly (mainly I say) Bestseller backlist.
Doranna Durgin that's true, I think
BrianHopkins Specialty dealers: Zeising, Chriss Drumm, Dreamhaven, etc help. We all owe a great deal to those pirate types who sell books outside of the malls.
LModesitt I've noticed that some editors are a fondness for what I would call, for lack of a better term, "insider literati" fiction. Readers, for what I see and hear, want good stories with action, and characters tehy can identifiy with...
Doranna Durgin Larry Smith, who travels the conventions--he's good.
LModesitt sorry -- meant to say "have a fondness"
Doranna Durgin That's my dog wars typo-inducing chaos headed your way, Lee
LModesitt Often my fingers lag my thoughts
BillieMosiman Characters and Action. Wonderful fiction!
BrianHopkins ACTION shields his computer from typo inductors.
Doranna Durgin I think publishers are looking at great big thick chunky books with grand scope
JanCyberC Folks, I'd like to interrupt here just for a second...Keith Ferrell has joined us... I'd like to give him a moment to introduce himself before we move on to the next question from the audience.
Doranna Durgin I'm not sure if that's what the READERS are looking for or not
JanCyberC Keith? Could you tell us a bit about yourself?
Keith Ferrell Hi! I am a fulltime writer, formerly Editorin-Chief of OMNI (1990-96). And I'm sorry I'm late! Server problems!
JanCyberC Thanks Keith...have a seat.
Doranna Durgin ACTION nods knowingly. Dog wars.
JanCyberC LOLOL. I was *wondering* what you meant by that. Okay...here's our next question...
BillieMosiman (As a reader I love big chunky books with a grand scope. But I like small intimate books too and action-packed books.)
BrianHopkins ACTION shakes Keith's hand and wonders if he still has pull with Ellen Datlow.
BillieMosiman LOL
JanCyberC crLizzie asks: General ?: isn't the market more affected by the chain bookstores and bean counters at the publishers?
BrianHopkins Yup.
Doranna Durgin I tend to write....not in a huge scope. Sigh. more affected than what?
BillieMosiman The market's affected by all sorts of things. Computer terminals in chain bookstores that keep track of sales. Spending overmuch for celebrity books and bestselling authors. Etc, etc, etc.
JanCyberC I'm assuming that refers back to her last question...more than what the fans want to read.
LModesitt There's no doubt the chain stores have a great effect... but it's not all bad... they often carry more backlist than some of the so-called independent general bookstores that they've repleaced.
JanCyberC Lizzie adds....Than what was being discussed earlier,
BrianHopkins You neglected database errors, Billie. My book's incorrectly listed with Barnes and Noble online and three months of trying to get them to correct the listing have failed.
Doranna Durgin Oh...yes, I think the chain stores have a big effect
Keith Ferrell Did anyone see the Thursday Wall St, Journal article on distribution?
BillieMosiman That's pretty awful, Brian.
BrianHopkins You should see the last letter I sent them. Hee hee.
BillieMosiman Nope, Keith.
BrianHopkins Doubt they'll ever fix it now.
Doranna Durgin Books get listed wrong in the B&T database, too.
BrianHopkins No, Keith.
Doranna Durgin So even if you...oops
BillieMosiman (We forgot to damn distributors.)
JanCyberC What's happening with Distribution that can effect writers in a ripple down?
Doranna Durgin you're LOOKING for it, you can't find it to order it.
BrianHopkins I thought that was a given, Billie.
BillieMosiman Hah!
LModesitt the B&N online operation is pretty sad -- that's my opinion, anyway.
Keith Ferrell The distribution channel is shrinking *dramatically.*
BillieMosiman It went from 270 distributors to...what? 10-12?
Doranna Durgin What'd the article say?
Keith Ferrell Yeah -- a couple of dozen distributors. Who only want to handle the top selling books and magazines.
BillieMosiman And there used to be hundreds.
Doranna Durgin Didn't that happen in the last couple of years?
JanCyberC So, in other words...both the number of publishing houses and distributors are shrinking which directly affects the writers pocketbooks.
Keith Ferrell WalMart, for example, now accounts for 9% of All U.S. newsstand sales.
BillieMosiman All you can find in an outlet store (grocery, pharmacy, superstores) are books by bestselling authors, and their backlist. Generally.
Keith Ferrell And WalMart racks are pretty much bestseller/media tie-in racks.
Doranna Durgin Hey, WalMart has their own romance line, too! For which they pay peanuts
LModesitt Another problem was/is the IRS tax treatment of inventory -- forced publishers out of holding stock for low-selling books.
BrianHopkins What's confusing about all this is that it seems like everyone is selling books these days. Even Best Buy. Problem is, everyone's focused on the bestsellers.
Doranna Durgin This Christmas we had piles of the bestsellers.
JanCyberC So, although there are a lot of outlets...everyone's only handling the "hits"?
Doranna Durgin Literally so many books that we just piled them up against the ends of the shelves.
BillieMosiman According to the B&N chairman on C-span, during a "publishing" interview...
Doranna Durgin Made me a little ill, actually.
BrianHopkins Yes, Jan.
BillieMosiman They're selling like crazy. But sales aren't all from big NY publishers. Readers are buying
LModesitt Or the stuff the outlet can get cheaply -- look at what's carried in K-Mart, Wal-Mart, and Albertson's
BillieMosiman across the board, from small press, small books, odd books, all kinds of things.
Doranna Durgin Billie, is this B&N on line?
JanCyberC So the big chains might actually save the small publishers. This is interesting.
BillieMosiman So bookstore sales are UP. But publishers' sales (big NY fiction publishers) are down. Go figure.
JanCyberC Harking back a bit here to a publishing question we had earlier...here's a follow up question...
LModesitt Not all sales are down, though. There are some authors whose sales continue to climb.
JanCyberC crRAfrCC asks: Not familiar with the terms "auctioning books".....Could you clear up those terms?
BillieMosiman Big publishers don't understand it and don't know how to address it. The heads of those firms on C-Span just sat quietly, listening to the B&N chairman exclaim his happiness.
Doranna Durgin True. Just as some authors are being developed by their publishers, as we discussed earlier. But it's not as many. (aurgh, that was a lagged response to Lee)
BillieMosiman An agent sends a manuscript to several houses at one time, and takes bids for it. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. My novel, WIDOW, was auctioned off. It was an auction between HarperCollins and Berkley. Berkley won. It was an extremely exciting hour of phone calls, with the auction bids coming in.
JanCyberC Has any one else had success with auctioning? And is it falling into disfavor now?
Doranna Durgin ACTION feels her blood pressure rising just imagining it. I haven't had the experience
BrianHopkins Me either
Keith Ferrell Auctions remain popular with a lot of agents, and publishers respond to them, -- But...
Doranna Durgin I don't know that it's falling into disfavor...I think it might be harder to get participation, but it's hard to get a pubisher interested in any book right now.
BillieMosiman This is where awards help the author. I'd just had an Edgar nomination, so publishers wanted to bid on the next book.
Keith Ferrell they tend to focus on teh advance to the author which increasingly has NOTHING
TechCyberC (Ok no glaring at Billie )
Keith Ferrell to do with how the publisher publishes and distributes the book
Doranna Durgin Ooh, you want to expand on that one?
LModesitt Auctioning only works if you appeal to a range of publishers. Because of what and how I write, TOR effectively the only publisher who can handle me.
Keith Ferrell Me?
Doranna Durgin yes. Though Lee's last remark was quite interesting, too
Keith Ferrell Sure -- there are plenty of books whose authors ahve done well at auction, six figures or better, but when pub time comes, the book barely ships, isn't promoted, the sales force isn't enthusiastic, etc,. etc etc.
Doranna Durgin ?? I can't really make sense of that.
Keith Ferrell Doranna, there are BIG name sf authors whose books have never left the publishers warehouses.
BrianHopkins Baffling.
Doranna Durgin Though I can't really make sense of the lackadaisical marketing for mi-listers, either.
BillieMosiman Yeah, I can't understand that.
Keith Ferrell Easier to take a tax write-down than to ship, handle retuirns, etc. And where it kills teh writer is on the NEXT book.
BrianHopkins bean counter stuff again.
Doranna Durgin ACTION utters an imprecation against tax write-downs
LModesitt The amount of time anyone in the sales force has to promote a single book is very limited. I was asked to change a book title once because the sales force could't pronounce it.
Doranna Durgin What was it?
BrianHopkins LOL, Lee. We wouldn't want to educate those sales people, now, would we?
JanCyberC That's very bad news for the authors and even worse news for us. You're saying that there are works by authors we enjoy reading that we will never see.
Keith Ferrell Sure.
LModesitt The final title was The Green Progression -- didn't do well under that title either -- only book I wrote that didn't go to a second printing or more.
Doranna Durgin definitely
JanCyberC Okay here's a pretty relevant question then...crLizzie asks: Have any of the writers tried or think there is any value in self-publishing?
Doranna Durgin Well, I think more aspiring writers will be doing this, what with the advent of on-demand publishing
BillieMosiman I think it's an expensive risk. Problem is distribution. Can't get them on a store shelf.
LModesitt I haven't tried it. I'm a better writer than a publisher, promoter, and wholesale and retail distributor...
Doranna Durgin and electronic sales
JanCyberC And I'd like to expand that question to cover publishing on the WEB/Internet.
Doranna Durgin But I'm not sure if it really gets anyone anywhere
BrianHopkins I've considered it a couple times and always backed off due to the stigma it carries.
Doranna Durgin Jan, that's basically what I'm talking about
JanCyberC It carries a stigma?
JanCyberC Thanks Doranna.
Doranna Durgin yuppers!
BillieMosiman I don't see publishing -books- working on the web yet. Where it's working is through online bookstores.
Doranna Durgin I'm not sure it's working YET. But it's beginning to be out there.
BrianHopkins The general opinion is that if it was good enough, you could sell it rather than self publish it, Jan.
Doranna Durgin Wish I could remember the name of the business on the web that does this, but there's one you register with and they keep your book on record, and print and send it when someone buys it. There's a BNP who registered a book with them... Can't remember that, either...
JanCyberC Speaking of which....folks you can purchase the books by the Authors here today via the Cybling Store. Just click on the Cybling Store banner, or go to http://www.cybling.com/store/
LModesitt The problem with on-line publishing is the reader -- if anyone can publish, how does a reader tell what's good once the marketplace is flooded. Publishers, for better or worse, screen writing for the reader.
Doranna Durgin exactly
BrianHopkins True.
BillieMosiman True.
JanCyberC So, before we have successful online publishing...we have to have successful online publishers.
BrianHopkins That doesn't apply to material you'd like to see reprinted on the web (or anywhere) though.
Doranna Durgin That's a good way to look at it.
Keith Ferrell And online READERS, Jan.
LModesitt and then, you're back to an electronic version of what we have now...
BrianHopkins Good point, Keith.
BillieMosiman Yes, readers. I'm not sure they're out there. For online books, printed on demand. Not yet.
Doranna Durgin I'm not sure they are, either
JanCyberC It's getting close to the first hour mark folks...but I have a four more questions in the QUEUE. Would you like to take those before we move on to open chat?
BillieMosiman If they ever are, print publishers aren't going to like it. Unless they're the online printers, of course.
Doranna Durgin And I haven't yet heard any scenario of electronic book that interests me. um, sure
LModesitt Let's have the questions
BillieMosiman Sure.
BrianHopkins Victor Koman's book did well. Made it to the Nebula ballot anyway.
JanCyberC Okay! crRAfrCC asks: In your opinion then...a beginning author should submit manuscripts to small publishers, big ones or both?
BrianHopkins Also won the Prometheus Award.
LModesitt Try for the big publishers -- what do you have to lose?
BillieMosiman Were it me, with a first novel...I would try big publishers first, small second.
BrianHopkins Start at the top and work your way down.
Doranna Durgin ditto
BillieMosiman We are all in agreement. :)
JanCyberC Looks pretty much like the majority says go for the gold. Okay next....
JanCyberC crbaryon asks: Do you prefer an "assigned" topic or working up one of your own, ie themed anthologies?
BrianHopkins I never do well with themed anthos.
BillieMosiman Themed anthologies usually have a topic already. The best themed ones are where the author is free, within the theme, to be creative.
Doranna Durgin If I'm going to be writing for an anthology, I kind of like a themed one--but as Billie said, with freedom.
LModesitt For whatever reason, no one has ever approached me for an anthology... of any sort... so...
Doranna Durgin The CHICKS anthos were like that. And lots of fun.
Keith Ferrell Yeah -- with the Japan anthology the only constraints upon the writers was the they include a Japanese theme.
BrianHopkins Seems I've only been invited to the restrictive ones.
BillieMosiman Next month ARMAGEDDON, a themed antho I did with David Drake comes out. We allowed the authors complete freedom--to go where they wished with just the word itself. I think it turned out nicely.
JanCyberC AdmlSisco Q: I don't know that much about contracts... iF the publisher chose not to distribute it, could you take it to another publisher?
Doranna Durgin There's one listed in the BULLETIN now where the stories have to be about poseable dolls. Or something like that. It's quite specific about WHAT kinds of dolls may be in the stories.
JanCyberC LOL....interesting Doranna.
BillieMosiman If a book is bought under contract, then usually it gets distributed.
Doranna Durgin Not always well, though...
JanCyberC BTW ... FYI crbaryon says pulpless.com and Xlibris are the two electronic book sellers on the net.
Keith Ferrell What per centage of the printed books get dirstributed?
Doranna Durgin If the book isn't actually published/distributed within a certain amount of time, the author has recourse.
Keith Ferrell And to what markets?
LModesitt That's a tricky question... eventually, you'd get the rights back with a standard reversion clause... but you'd probably have to wait years... unless you reached an agreement with the publisher.
JanCyberC Does it depend on %? If a certain percentage isn't distributed could a writer jerk his/her book and go elsewhere?
Keith Ferrell No.
Doranna Durgin Jan, not the one I was referring to earlier, darn it. Can't think of it...there's a link in the SWFA site.
Keith Ferrell UNLESS -- and I recommend this, that yyour contract include a dropship date, specified ship number, and so on.
JanCyberC So once it's sold you're stuck with the publishing house and whatever it wants to do or not do with your work?
Doranna Durgin Yep.
JanCyberC Oooh...excellent...thanks Keith.
Keith Ferrell Well, it's not that easy to get.
Doranna Durgin Publishers have added a new dirty trick, too. Instead of declaring a book OP, in which case the rights revert aftedr a certain amount of time (years)
BrianHopkins Impossible for a new writer to get that in a contract, I'd guess.
JanCyberC But knowing about it's possibility may help other writers work to get it.
Keith Ferrell But you can always refuse to sell the book without those provisos.
LModesitt Unless, as Keith says, you have protective clauses that most publishers won't give except to authors tehy'd distribute widely anyway.
BillieMosiman Well, in contracts it says something about the date of publication and that means "in print and available in outlets."
Doranna Durgin They're calling them OS, out of stock. People still can't get the book, but the author can't resell the rights, either
JanCyberC Folks...we have a final question here..regarding electronic publishing.
Doranna Durgin It's pretty slippery
JanCyberC crTAM asked: Could this be helped by reviewers--on line dreck sifters?
JanCyberC I believe she's referring to large #s of self-published novels flooding the market.
BillieMosiman If the reviewers online were nationally known or something, yeah, maybe.
JanCyberC Would reviewers take the place of the pulp publishing houses?
BrianHopkins A Siskel and Ebert of online fiction?
JanCyberC Yeah....or a site like....sfsite.com
Doranna Durgin Don't underestimate the number of books that people want tp sell as opposed to the number that sell.
LModesitt Who is the "reviewer" ? I'm not terribly fond of most reviewers. In my experience, the more "in" they are, the more biased... which is fine if they like you...
JanCyberC Or Locusmag.com
Doranna Durgin The publishers do a LOT of sifting
LModesitt But what if the "reviewers" don't....
JanCyberC Ah...payola?
BrianHopkins ACTION turns his pockets inside out.
Doranna Durgin ACTION doesn't even have pockets
BillieMosiman A writer with money to throw around to reviewers? Are you crazy? LOL!
JanCyberC Yes, I've been accused of that often.
Doranna Durgin (Don't Quit Your Day Job)
JanCyberC LOL.
LModesitt Not until you have a healthy backlist, anyway.
Doranna Durgin right. You've got a wonderful backlist!
BillieMosiman With a healthy backlist, who needs reviewers? Just kidding!
JanCyberC Okay....thanks a lot...that's the end of the formal questions from the audience. One hour is about the length of time we keep our guests duct-taped to their seats.
LModesitt I quit my day job more than 20 years after my first published story.
BrianHopkins I'm still looking for a sugar-mama.
JanCyberC We'd like to ask the panelists to stay with us for open chat....after you've had a chance to make any final statements.
JanCyberC Would you care to sum up?
Doranna Durgin I think Don't Quit Your Day Job about did it for me!
JanCyberC LOL, Thanks Doranna. Anyone else at this time?
BillieMosiman I can stay only a few minutes. No summary.
JanCyberC Thanks Billie.
JanCyberC Keith? Lee?
LModesitt I can never summarize... not without saying what I already said.
BrianHopkins I think Doranna did a good job.
TechCyberC ROFL!
Keith Ferrell Do anything you have to to support yourself -- do the writing for its own sake, then remember that YOU're the writer.. make the publishers treat your work with the respect it deserves. Or don't sell to them.
BillieMosiman LOL
Doranna Durgin ooh, Keith is profound
LModesitt He's been an editor.
JanCyberC Thank you Keith, Lee, Doranna, Billie and BAH.
Keith Ferrell Of course, you couls also bear in mind the Hollywood starlet who was so dumb she slept with the writer.
JanCyberC Folks. The room is now unmoderated.
BillieMosiman You're welcome. Thanks for inviting me.
crGand LOL
Doranna Durgin LOL!
JanCyberC Let's thank the authors!
BillieMosiman LOL
JanCyberC .:::applauding:::
crRAfrCC So, the pubs pay you up front for your work. Do you get royalties or a percentage
crGand :::applause:::::
AdmlSisco Thanks so much! You all have super insights.
Dayahla Thanks to you all!
crRAfrCC Applause:;;
crLizzie ACTION is determined to become very very famouse cuz she thinks being gagged sux.
crbaryon terrific chat
BrianHopkins LOL, Liz
crLizzie Thanks to the writers!
Dayahla ROFL, Liz!
AdmlSisco Is quitting your day job really the objective? Or is it more rewarding when it's an avocation?
crRAfrCC Thanks ya'll
BillieMosiman Yes, authors get percentages of each book sold. Called royalties.
JanCyberC .:::Hands Liz a glass of red stuff to get the taste out of her mouth:::
crgrape thank you all!
JanCyberC Billie, Royalties? I thought that had turned into a bad joke?
LModesitt Writing is more rewarding when you can write what you want -- however you get there.
Doranna Durgin Sisco, depends on how much time you have in your life...
BillieMosiman I hate day jobs. Never having one has been my sole ambition.
Dayahla LOL
Doranna Durgin Jan, the royalty fairy doesn't visit all that often...
JanCyberC LOLOL.
crRAfrCC typical royalty, LOL
JanCyberC I'm sorry, but that's a very good name for it Doranna.
crLizzie Ha, Billie. The greatest disappoint of my life was NOT being born an heiress
LModesitt The royalty gnome, you mean? Every 6 months, if you're lucky.
Doranna Durgin wish I could say I'd made it up...
BillieMosiman Yeah, me too, Lizzie. Damn!
crGand :::picturing Carol Kane flitting from house to house with royalties :)
AdmlSisco LOL
BrianHopkins LOL, Gand.
Doranna Durgin depends on how your publisher distributes your books, Lee
crLizzie LOL Gand
Doranna Durgin Never is also a possibility
Dayahla LOL, Ganc
LModesitt I've been fortunate...
JanCyberC So if royalties were not a given before the distributors crunch...they're even less likely now, correct?
AdmlSisco Don't many authors never sell enough to generate royalties?
Keith Ferrell That's why I like Stephen King's new deal -- per cent of profits rather than royalties. Share the risk, but also the rewwrds.
crbaryon ::::picturing reviewers pounded with old tomatoes
Dayahla Lee, if you put a book under your pillow, does she leave $$?
AdmlSisco Stephen takes SUCH risks with that deal.
TechCyberC ROFL!
Doranna Durgin Hey, King got several mil up front on that one.
BillieMosiman Authors who don't sell through are gone now. They were called the midlist. Heh.
crGand LOL Sis
crLizzie LOL Sis
Dayahla <---sis
Doranna Durgin ACTION = midlist
TechCyberC Dell through?
LModesitt Sleeping on books is too hard, especially when others are trying to get out of your head.
JanCyberC Did anyone else catch Ellison's Buzz today on the SciFi Channel?
Dayahla ::grins::
TechCyberC Sell through.
crGand Harlan was on SFChannel to day ranting about the midlist.....
JanCyberC LOL, Lee.
BrianHopkins Missed it, Jan.
crGand LOL Jan
crLizzie Gand--Harlan? Ranting? You jest!
BillieMosiman What did Ellison say?
crgrape Was he ranting, Jan.
crgrape ?
crGand I love his rants :)
JanCyberC Oh it was good...though the author whose picture he splashed all over the air waves has to be *very* unhappy right now.
crRAfrCC .
crLizzie Yeah, Gand, he's cute when he's irritated.
BillieMosiman Rants are great.
Doranna Durgin Sell through = sell enough copies of your book to pay back the publisher for your advance with your cumulative percentage from each sale
JanCyberC He was saying that authors are writing drek to make ends meet these days...
JanCyberC because the publishers are forcing them to.
Keith Ferrell That's why Isaac A ALWAYS took small advances.
JanCyberC ST, SW, spin-offs etc. ad naseum.
BillieMosiman Some of them are, true. Not that you'd catch -me- doing that. LoL
TechCyberC Ok in manufacturing that's the break even point. Thanks.
LModesitt So does Ann McCaffrey -- for the same reason.
Doranna Durgin Tech, right
crgrape Who did he dis, Jan?
BrianHopkins I know it wasn't me.
BrianHopkins Hee hee
AdmlSisco You'd never *catch* me doing that.
TechCyberC LOL Bah but you love him.
BillieMosiman The midlist is down and Harlan's giving them hell for trying to make a living? Hah!
JanCyberC Mike Wolf? Not sure...he co-wrote some "puddytat" fantasy in the middle of a Fantasy Publication...
Doranna Durgin An advance should be enough to live on while you write the book, mostly. No real reason it has to be outrageous, even if you are King.
crRAfrCC say you take an advance..book does poorly...you have to pay it back?
TechCyberC Too stron a word?
JanCyberC put out by Del Rey.
crGand Mike somebody...in England
BrianHopkins No, Raf
LModesitt You keep the advance...
JanCyberC Don't quote me there....Mike I know...Yes. Nice looking gentleman.
crRAfrCC ok, thnks
Doranna Durgin Just because the book doesn't sell-through doesn'tmean the publisher didn't make money on it.
Keith Ferrell Write the book BEFORE you sell it -- works better that way, financially.
crbaryon Resnick?
BrianHopkins ACTION wishes Ellison would notice him, even if only to trash.
JanCyberC No, Bary, not Resnick.
............................Data left ............. :(
crLizzie LOL BAH
crTAM LOL
LModesitt So far... I've written every book before it was sold.
JanCyberC LOL BAH.
BillieMosiman Before the midlist died, they were selling puddy cat fantasies. So what else is new?
Keith Ferrell Yeah.
Dayahla LOL, Wolfie\
JanCyberC Why sell a book before it's written?
crgrape ROTF Bah!
Doranna Durgin THE WILD ROAD?
crGand That's it, Dor
BrianHopkins Money, Jan!
TechCyberC Would you rather sell a book before or after it's written?
BrianHopkins The root of all evul
BrianHopkins evil, too
Dayahla Jan...wait, why not?
Doranna Durgin so you don't waste your time writing a book no one will buy
TechCyberC Personally.
JanCyberC Okay...I see that point.
Keith Ferrell No one except me and my agent see my books before THE END.
BillieMosiman I'd rather sell after it's written. Have done both. It's ok either way, really.
Doranna Durgin I've got an advance copy.
BillieMosiman No complaints.
Doranna Durgin It was an interesting idea..NOT a good book overall, though
JanCyberC Doesn't it give the publisher an onerous amount of control over you though...when you're beholding to them.
TechCyberC I'd think the pressure would be better if written first.
AdmlSisco I would feel enormously pressured & procrastinate horribly if I sold first, write second.
LModesitt The pressure's definitely less if you have it finished.
Doranna Durgin pressure?
Doranna Durgin (that was to Tech...)
BillieMosiman To your question, Jan..No. You're only beholden to yourself. They contract a book and then don't like it, you leave, sell it elsewhere.
TechCyberC (I'm the typo king around these parts )
Dayahla lol
LModesitt Besides, then editors don't make as many suggestions....
JanCyberC Ah. Interseting Billie...but doesn't that go in the secret publisher list....the fact that you didn't toe the line?
Keith Ferrell Anything you can do to keep the publishers from "shaping" the book to suit their idea of the marketplace is, I think, a good thing.
BillieMosiman Never done it, don't know, Jan.
AdmlSisco Does it drive you crazy when the publisher writes a jacket blurb that is misleading or downright inaccurate?
Doranna Durgin I haven't had editor interefence on my books sold on outline.
JanCyberC Cool. So write *your* book and then try to sell it.
Doranna Durgin Maybe I've been lucky
Keith Ferrell Yep.
TechCyberC Do you think publishers respect authors more who don't cave in on all demands?
BillieMosiman Had a publisher once, nameless, wanted to buy a book of mine on a partial--not fully written. But the editor started saying stuff like...
crbaryon HarperCollins, didn't understand the market place and just wrote off Million$$
Doranna Durgin Sisco, yes. And let's not even get into misleading book covers
BrianHopkins Publishers respecting authors. What a concept!
BillieMosiman "Let's make this female, male. And change this character's job." After she went on a while, I hung up saying I'd think about it.
Keith Ferrell Hold out to write your own jacket copy, etc.
crRAfrCC Does the author have control over cover art?
Doranna Durgin Too true, Ba
AdmlSisco <--- DETESTS the cleavage-shot covers of self-respecting heroines!
JanCyberC .::shivering:::
BillieMosiman I called my agent immediately and said, "Pull the book. Won't work with her."
Doranna Durgin Billie, aurgh!
BillieMosiman But then...I'm mean. :)
AdmlSisco Yikes!
TechCyberC Good for you Billie!
Doranna Durgin No cover control
Doranna Durgin Awright, Billie!
crRAfrCC that sux
JanCyberC You still don't have any say over who your artists are?
LModesitt Most authors don't control the cover art... most are lucky to see it until they start making high five figure advances
crLizzie Good for you, Billie!
TechCyberC Frankly Doranna I love the cover on Lady's Jess anyway.
Doranna Durgin I express a preference. Then I express much gratitude if anyone listens
BillieMosiman Sold it to an editor who understood what I was writing. You have to be ready to walk. Gives you the control that way. To hell with publishing a book if someone else wants to write it.
JanCyberC In speaking with artists, most of them would welcome talking with the authors...they just aren't given the opportunity.
AdmlSisco Lee, your covers have been great so far, IMO.
Doranna Durgin Tech, I liked it, too. Marketing wise, it was a poor cover.
Doranna Durgin Jan, true
TechCyberC How's that, Doranna?
TechCyberC Not bright enough?
Doranna Durgin indicated a pseudo-medeival fantasy where there wasn't one
LModesitt Some of my early covers weren't wonderful... these days, I have more input. also helps to have a good editor, which I do.
TechCyberC The artist mentioned bright is better. OIC.
TechCyberC Looking...
Dayahla I agree with Sisco...I bought Lee's first book, due to cover art catching my eye...
JanCyberC Is there a reason that the artists and the authors aren't allowed to speak to each other?
AdmlSisco MOST SF books seem to have black or dark background covers, and I never seem to reach for pastels.
Doranna Durgin publishers don't want to deal with it
Doranna Durgin the print run on my April book made the cover nice and dark
Doranna Durgin and blurred
Doranna Durgin ick
TechCyberC Right the castel and the horse place are on the same world and should be seperated.
LModesitt some editors and marketing directors want to nt cover to "market", not to the story.
BillieMosiman The publishers may be afraid an author will get to interfering. Makes trouble.
JanCyberC Is it a marketing decision that authors and artists don't know what will sell a book?
TechCyberC I see now.
crLizzie I don't think I've ever bought a book by it's cover.
Doranna Durgin tech, there ARE no castles
Doranna Durgin you made my point.
crLizzie I mean cover art. I've bought it cuz of the blurbs, tho.
crRAfrCC .
Dayahla Lee, that is sometimes the case...cannot read a cover from 3' away ::grins::
crTAM I buy books by covers, sometimes
TechCyberC And I'm reading it. LOLOLOL
AdmlSisco I've NOT bought books by their cover.. too ethereal or romantic, or too sexual.
BillieMosiman Well, marketing departments have their jobs. They're there to market the product. Sometimes they do it well, sometimes poorly. You takes your chances.
TechCyberC Sorry.
Dayahla The cover can attract prospective readers, Liz-sis
crbaryon Frazetta cover art adds to sales
Doranna Durgin I pick up books for their covers. I buy them for their content
crLizzie Day, I'm more like Sisco, covers will deter my purchase, not incur it.
Doranna Durgin Well, that's not the ONLY reason Ipick them up.
JanCyberC Actually Barry, the artists in the panel last week were complaining that publishers are telling them to put MORE clothes on their models.
crgrape <----does not look at covers.
TechCyberC I might buy an author I've never read if the cover is interesting and the blurbs look good.
LModesitt According to a publishers' survey, nearly 30% of all book purchases are because of the cover.
crbaryon Just came from Waldenbooks, spines showing, not covers
AdmlSisco I won't buy a cover that I would be uncomfortable leaving laying around my kids.
Dayahla Liz, they can catch your eye...you read the jacket..then buy..
crLizzie Ya get those broads on their knees, popping out of bodices, before well-thewed dudes in faun colored trousers. . .I know to pass it by.
BillieMosiman Interesting, Jan. America's going conservative, eh? :)
Doranna Durgin Tell that to Jennifer Roberson
crgrape LOL Liz
Doranna Durgin I just scanned her cover for her next book
crRAfrCC I never buy for cover art..just give me a brief blurb on content on the back and you could cover em' in burlap for all I care. I just want to read them,LOL
JanCyberC LOLOL, Liz. Yes Billie, ever since that child porn action agains B&N.
Doranna Durgin Her swordswoman is popping out all over
Doranna Durgin and that's AFTER a revision request!
BillieMosiman Didn't know there was a child porn action. Sigh.
BrianHopkins Sounds like an Arryo cover.
JanCyberC Photography books.
BillieMosiman Where's their mommas???
Doranna Durgin Jim Burns
crbaryon Two suits over photography book
AdmlSisco Don't they realize that swordswomen need good support & coverage? ;-)
crTAM .
crLizzie Picking up the checks, Billie
BrianHopkins Never heard of him, Doranna.
JanCyberC And, from what I read, they were only nudes...not porn in any way...but .:::shrug:::
BillieMosiman You're right, Lizzie.
Doranna Durgin It's a beautiful cover, but...
crLizzie <------cynic
JanCyberC So the publishers are asking for more clothes on covers...EXCEPT for illustrated books.
Doranna Durgin I just put it up on her web site, go see!
AdmlSisco URL?
crbaryon Just in the Bible Belt
Doranna Durgin Also has lovely loopy earrings to be ripped out of her flesh...
crLizzie Charming. . .
Doranna Durgin www.sff.net/people/jennifer.roberson
BrianHopkins A fashionable swordswoman, eh?
............................crGand left ............. :(
Dayahla LOL, Doranna
AdmlSisco I loved TANK GIRL because that's how a female adventurer would likely dress. The story wasn't much, though.
crLizzie ACTION only wears brass bikinis in chat rooms, not to fight dragons.
Doranna Durgin To be fair the guy is showing a lot of flesh, also.
AdmlSisco LOL Liz!
crRAfrCC Buffy Birnbaum..barbarian swordsperson...or something like that anyway
crgrape LOL Liz
crLizzie
JanCyberC I'm very disappointed about the feeling that the web is not an alternative to the publishing houses. Writers really need some releif...and so do WE. The fans.
Dayahla I turn my fave author's books cover out, on the shelf, as I search for new ones :)
...........................crGand joined............. :)
BillieMosiman Well, maybe it will change and grow, Jan. Would be nice.
Doranna Durgin I do feel the web will make a difference in book SELLING.
JanCyberC The idea that there are books moldering in warehouses makes my skin crawl.
crLizzie Yes, Jan, but we readers also need relief from crap. . .and there is more crap on web than on bookshelves, IMO
Doranna Durgin Ah, Day, you're a book-facing fairy
crRAfrCC I pull the covers off when I'm reading a book. It just gets in the way
crLizzie Ack, RAf
BrianHopkins one bok facer and one book de-facer
JanCyberC So Liz...we need an online publisher then, that we can trust.
crLizzie Damage a BOOK?????????
Doranna Durgin someone who buys hardcovers!
BillieMosiman Lord, RAf!
crLizzie Sacrilige!
TechCyberC books that haven't been read! THATS NOT NATURAL!
............................Keith left ............. :(
crgrape ::::::::gasp::::::::
crLizzie Well, Algis Budrys is there, Jan.
BillieMosiman That's worse than my friend who reads the ending first. LOL
JanCyberC Ooops...we lost Keith.
crRAfrCC I also bend pages over to mark where I am...can'yt seem to quit it,LOL
JanCyberC Again, server problems I'm sure.
crLizzie ACTION slaps crRAfrCC around a bit with a large squid
JanCyberC TOMORROW, Lizzie?
Doranna Durgin there are respectable on-line magazines, I think
crLizzie Yes, Jan
crbaryon RAF, do I need to send yoou a book marker?
JanCyberC I was thinking more in line of Novels.
crLizzie TomorrowSF
Doranna Durgin But then, they're being produced by people with off-line track records
crGand Next prize for trivia - - Cybling Book Markers :)
JanCyberC You got it Gand.
crRAfrCC I ahve tons of book markers, just never use em'
crgrape Great idea, Gand!!!1
JanCyberC I just happen to have some right here.
TechCyberC I LIKE IT!
AdmlSisco RAf... you mean the hardcover dust jackets, right? ;-)
BillieMosiman Well, I have to get going. We've got dinner and a movie planned. I sure enjoyed it. Thanks to everyone.
crRAfrCC yeah, sico
crbaryon Thanks Billie Sue
TechCyberC Thanks Billie!
JanCyberC Billie Thanks so Much!
Doranna Durgin that's what I thought
crGand Bye Bille!
AdmlSisco Thanks, BIllie! Apppreciated your input!
crLizzie Thanks, Billie! Nice meeting you. Goodbye.
Doranna Durgin Bye, Billie!
BrianHopkins See ya, Billie!
crgrape Bye Billie, Thanks1
crTAM Thanks Billie
crRAfrCC what were we speaking of?
BillieMosiman And don't take my answers to heart or be discouraged. Anyone can do anything he wants in this world. Believe it.
Dayahla Thanks, Billie!
crRAfrCC maybe i missed something?
BillieMosiman See you! Bye!
............................BillieMosiman left ............. :(
JanCyberC .:::applauding Ms. Mosiman:::
crTAM RAf---people who pull covers off books
Dayahla ACTION crosses out notes of Billies thoughts
crLizzie LOL Day
JanCyberC LOL Day.
TechCyberC ROFL
AdmlSisco Like pulling wings off butterflies. Sheesh. };>
Dayahla :)
JanCyberC BTW, folks, the log will be up in a few days...so you don't need to keep notes.
crLizzie Good analogy, Sisco
crTAM lol Day
crbaryon or eating crickets
crgrape ewww!
crRAfrCC oh, I must have missed that...I was speaking of the hardcover artwork, LOL
crLizzie ACTION is feeling better about RAf, already
crGand ack, brb
JanCyberC And, you can access all of the author's books via the Cybling Store...so if you've never been there to check the titles we have available...do!
crgrape Just take off the dust cover?
TechCyberC Right I pull off the hardcover wrapper while reading and put em back later.
Dayahla LOL, Liz-sis...he is a clever-enough fella'
Doranna Durgin Dog wars is heating up again. I may have to go intervene
crLizzie Well, I thought he tore the covers off his paperbacks, from what he said, Day-sis.
JanCyberC Doranna...thanks so much for joining us today.
crRAfrCC LOL, Well, now I understand !..I did think that removing the dustcover hardly rated getting beaned with a squid!
JanCyberC We look forward to your individual GOH with us later in March.
AdmlSisco Thanks for coming and sharing, Doranna!
Doranna Durgin yer welcome!
crTAM Thanks Doranna,
crLizzie Get cats, Dorana. thanks for chatting, Bye
Doranna Durgin later!
Dayahla Thanks, Doranna!
LModesitt EXTRAVAGANT WAVE I need to be departing...
BrianHopkins nice to meet you Doranna!
TechCyberC Thank you so much, Doranna!
crbaryon Enjoyed greatly
crRAfrCC thanks Doranna
crgrape Thanks Doranna!
JanCyberC Lee...
............................Doranna left ............. :(
Dayahla Night, Lee!!!!
JanCyberC Thanks for joining us today!
crLizzie ACTION waves bye to Lee
Dayahla thanks for coming!
BrianHopkins See you later, Lee!
crGand bak.
JanCyberC We relly appreciate your input.
Dayahla ACTION waves to Lee
crTAM Thanks Lee Bue
crgrape Bye Lee!
AdmlSisco Thanks, much, Lee... keep writing, I love your books!
crRAfrCC Bye Lee
crGand Bye Lee!
TechCyberC Lee thanks I enjoyed your insights as always!
crRAfrCC brb
crGand buy Lee, Buy Lee :)